Hearings regarding Toma Babin. Hearings

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HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

J

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

MAY 27 AND JULY 6, 1949

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities

UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
93611 WASHINGTON : 1949

fj0^ y^ ^/^^

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives

JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey

BURR P. HARRISON, Virginia RICHARD M. NIXON, California

JOHN McSWEENEY, Ohio FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota

MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois

Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel

Louis J. Russell, Senior Investigator

John W. Carrinoton, Clerk of Committee

Benjamin Mandel, Director o Research

II

CONTENTS

Page

May 27, 1949: Testimony'of Toma Babin 165

July 6, 1949: Testimony of—

Charles McKillips 170

Arthur W. Fry 171

Exliibits follow page 174.

Ill

HEARINGS EEGARDING TOMA BABIN

FRIDAY, MAY 27, 1949

United States House of Repeesentatives,

Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington, D. C.

executive session 1

The Committee on Un-American Activities met pursuant to call at
11 a.m. in room 226, Old House Office Building, Hon. John S. Wood
(chau^man) presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives John S. Wood (chair-
man), Francis E. Walter, Burr P. Harrison, Morgan M. Moulder,
Richard M. Nixon, and Francis Case.

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, senior investigator; Donald T. Appell, William A. Wheeler,
and Courtney Owens, investigators; and A. S. Poore, editor.

Mr. Wood. Let the committee come to order, and let the record
disclose that Mr. Walter, Mr. Harrison, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Case, and
the chairman are present.

(Thereupon, Mr. Toma Babin, accompanied by his counsel, Mr.
Joseph Forer, entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Wood. Mr. Babin, will you raise your right hand, please. You
solemnly swear that the evidence you will give this committee will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wood. Are you accompanied by an attorney, Mr. Babin?

Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wood. Will your attorney please identify himself for the
record?

Mr. FoRER. My name is Joseph Forer, F-o-r-e-r.

Mr. Wood. Your address, please.

Mr. Forer. I am a member of the District of Columbia bar. My
office is at 1105 K Street NW., Washington, D. C.

Mr. Wood. Telephone?

Mr. Forer. Telephone National 4047.

SWORN TESTIMONY OF TOMA BABIN

Mr. Russell. Mr. Babin, will you state your full name and
present address?

Mr. Babin. Yes. My name is Toma Babin, 274 West Nineteenth
Street, New York City.

Mr. Russell. When and where were you born?

Mr. Babin. I was born in Yugoslavia in 1901.

^ Testimony taken in executive session and released during public hearing, July 6, 1949.

155

156 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Russell. You were born in Poljana, Yugoslavia?

Mr. Babin. Poljana, yes.

Mr. FoEER. Mr. Russell, would you mind stating for the record
the rules of the committee as to the participation of counsel?

Mr. Wood. The witness is permitted at all times to confer with
counsel as fully as he desires. If any questions are asked the witness
that he desires to confer with counsel about before answering, he may
do so.

Mr. FoRER. Counsel has no other rights of participation?

Mr. Wood. No.

Let the record show Mr. Nixon is present also.

Mr. Russell. When did you first enter the United States?

Mr. Babin. I first entered the United States in 1925, in November,
something like that.

Mr. Russell. In what port did you enter?

Mr. Babin. Port of New York.

Mr. Russell. How did you enter?

Mr. Babin. As a seaman.

Mr. Russell. Did you enter by deserting the steamship Pastores
of Calamares?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. After your arrival in the United States in November
1925, by whom were you employed?

Mr. Babin. I was employed by the Hamburg-American Line, New
York dock.

Mr. Russell. Your entry in 1925 was illegal, was it not?.

Mr. Babin. Was illegal as a seaman.

Mr. Russell. Have you remained continuously in the United
States since your illegal entry in November 1925?

Mr. Babin. I remained until 1937.

Mr. Russell. Did you travel to Spain in 1937?

Mr. Babin. 1937 and 1938.

Mr. Russell. When you traveled to Spain, what sort of passport
did you use?

Mr. Babin. I used a Spanish passport.

Mr. Russell. On what ship did you travel?

Mr. Babin. Steamship Georgik.

Mr. Russell. It was a British ship, was it not?

Mr. Babin. A British ship, yes.

Mr. Russell. When did you next enter the United States after
your trip to Spain?

Mr. Babin. I entered the United States as a seaman in 1939, in
August, I believe, 1st of August 1939, on the steamship Scottish
Maiden.

Mr. Russell. When you were in Spain, were you a member of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

Mr. Babin. I was.

Mr. Russell. How did you enter the United States the second
time in 1937?

Mr. Babin. 1939.

Mr. Russell. 1939?

Mr. Babin. Yes. As a seaman.

Mr. Russell. Did you enter as a deserter from a British tanker
known as the Scottish Maiden'^.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 157

Mr. Babin. No, sir. During that time the master of the ship gave
me a leave to visit my uncle in Hartford, Conn., and before the ship
returned back war was declared. Then I remained there.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever return to the ship the Scottish Maiden?

Mr. Babin. No, because the Scottish Maiden did not come back.

Mr. Russell. You remained in the United States illegally, then?.

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Have you ever used the name Tom Lostika?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Were you ever arrested by the Immigration Service?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Did you know Tom Lostika?

Mr. Babin. I know him, yes.

Mr. Russell. How did you know him?

Mr. Babin. As my cousin I loiow him.

Mr. Russell. Was he ever arrested and deported from the United
States?

Mr. Babin. He was deported from the United States. I don't
know the year, but I know he was deported.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever legalize your residence in the United
States?

Mr. Babin. I went to the Department of Justice in 1945, I beUeve,
and filled out the applications and everything else.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make application for a permanent status
immigration visa?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Was your request granted?

Mr. Babin. No reply was made.

Mr. Russell, By whom are you employed at the present time?

Mr. Babin. At the present time I work for the business organization
which sends packages and all kinds of materials to Yugoslavia.

Mr. Russell. What is the name of the organization, the Yugo-
slavian Relief organization?

Mr. Babin. No. Translated it is the Volunteer Committee for
Yugoslav Relief. It was formed after the war.

Mr. Russell. You have been examined by the Immigration and
Naturalization Service, have you not?

Mr. Babin. I was examined by the Department of Justice in 1945,
as I stated.

Mr. Russell. Were you asked at that time if you were then or
had ever been a member of the Communist Party of the United
States?

Mr. Babin. I wasn't asked.

Mr. Russell. You were not asked that question?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of
the Communist Party of the United States or of Yugoslavia?

Mr. Babin. I have never been.

Mr. Russell. You have never been a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. During your period of residence in the United
States, have you ever contacted the Russian consulate in New York
City?

158 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Babin. I never contacted nobody.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Mikhail A. Ouraevsky?

Mr. Babin. I don't know him.

Mr. Russell. M-i-k-h-a-i-1 A, 0-u-r-a-e-v-s-k-y. You have never
met him?

Mr. Babin. Never met him and don't know the guy.

Mr. Russell. You never met him any place?

Mr. Babin. No place.

Mr. Russell. In New York City?

Mr. Babin. No; no place.

Mr. Russell. Or any other place?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever use the name "Johnson"?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Never under any circumstances?

Mr. Babin. Never; never. Always I used my own name.

Mr. Russell. You never met Ouraevsky on Fortieth Street in
New York City?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You are positive of that?

Mr. Babin. Positive.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Mikhail Vavilov?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. \Vho was an employee of the Russian consulate in
New York City?

Mr. Babin. I don't know nothing about him. I never met the guy.

Mr. Russell. Did you attend the Third Free World Congress
Convention at the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York City in 1943
with Vavilov and Ouraevsky?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Did you attend the Third Free World Congress
Convention?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You are Tom Babin?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. T-o-m B-a-b-i-n?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. You are positive?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. And the answers you have given are truthful an-
swers?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Mr. Babin, have you ever been a member of the
American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?

Mr. Babin. Member; as my organization was affiliated.

Mr. Russell. Weren't you a member of the committee on resolu-
tions?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. You were not a member of the committee on resolu-
tions?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Abner Green? He was secretary of
the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.

Mr. Babin. I know him; yes.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 159

Mr. Russell. Didn't he appoint you a member of the committee
on resolutions?

Air. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Did you attend a meeting of the American Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born at the Hotel Commodore
in New York City in October 1943?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Ai-thur Bartl, B-a-r-t-1?

Mr. Babin. Yes; from Spain.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Daisy Lolich?

Mr. Babin. I know her, his wife.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Konstantin Shabaiiov?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Tou never contacted Mr. Shabanov?

Mr. Babin. Never, I don't know who is that guy.

Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not he was the successor^of
Mr. Ouraevsky at the Soviet consulate in New York City?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Do you loiow Bella Golden?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You never contacted her in the offices of the
Russian War Relief?

Mr. Babin. I don't remember.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Bella Golden?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Have you ever been in the offices of the Russian
War Relief in New York City at any time?

Mr. Babin. During the campaign for Russian war relief I many
times brought in money, but I don't know the woman, don't know
nobody.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Milton Wolff?

Mr. Babin. I know him in Spain.

Mr. Russell. Did you serve with Milton Wolff as a member of
the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Anton S. Ivancic?

Mr. Babin. Captain Ivancic.

Mr. Russell. Do you know him?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sally Goldwood?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sally Goldwood Radic?

Mr. Babin. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Russell. What was the nature of your association with Sally
Goldwood Radic?

Mr. Babin. I know Radic and know he is married to that girl. I
never saw her before.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Louis Adamic?

Mr. Babin. I know Louis Adamic. I saw him.

Mr. Russell. What was the nature of your association with Louis
Adamic?

Mr. Babin. There is no nature. I just saw him a few times, that
is all.

Mr. Russell. Where did you see him?

93611—49 — —2

160 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Babin. I saw him in New York.

Mr. Russell. In what place?

Mr. Babin. At his hotel.

Mr. Russell. His hotel?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. What hotel was that?

Mr. Babin. I guess St. Regis.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Avrom Landy, A-A-r-o-m L-a-n-d-y?

Mr. Babin. I don't know the guy.

Mr. Russell. He was formerly director of the foreign nationality
groups of the Communist Party. You say you do not know him?

Mr. Babin. No. I never saw the guy.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leon Krzycki, president of the Ameri-
can Slav Congress?

Mr. Babin, I know him.

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him?

Mr. Babin. I met him during the war at Detroit at the American
Slav Congress; not met him, but I know him; I saw him there.

Mr. Russell. Did he ever request you to contact Avrom Landy?

Mr. Babin. Never. I never talked to Mr. Krzycki.

Mr. Russell. You never talked to Mr. Krzycki at all?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. In New York City?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Were you a member or an officer of the Americans
of South Slavic Descent?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell, You have never been associated with that organiza-
tion?

Mr. Babin. I have read the literature, but I never was a member
of it.

Mr. Russell. Did you help organize the war relief fund of the
Americans of South Slavic Descent?

Mr. Babin, I just donated money and worked for them.

Mr, Russell. Did you play any part in the organization?

Mr, Babin, Yes, During the relief drive I spoke at the meetings
of the Relief for Yugoslavia, yes,

Mr. Russell. Whom did you work with when the organization was
formed?

Mr. Babin. Mr. Louis Adamic and other guys.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Zlatko Balokovic?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. How do you know him?

Mr, Babin, I know him from the American Slav Congress and I
know him before that. I met him at the concert a few times.

Mr. Russell, You met him where?

Mr. Babin. At the concert he gave as a violinist.

Mr. Russell, Do you know George Buban?

Mr. Babin. I saw him,

Mr, Russell. Was he a vice president of the American Committee
for Yugoslavian Relief?

Mr. Babin, He was one of the board of directors, yes.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Anne Traven?

Mr. Babin. Yes. She was a secretary of the reUef committee.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 161

Mr. K ussELL. Do you know Israel Amter?

Mr. Babin. I saw him in a picture many times in the newspaper.

Mr. RusbELL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. Babin. No; I never talked to him.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Robert Wood?

Mr. Babin. Never saw^ him.

Mr. Russell. You never met him?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Do you laiow Stanley Pustek, P-u-s-t-e-k?

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. I don't know.

Air. Russell. Do you know Robert Wood who was eastern
organizer for the raih'oad committee of the Comm.unist Party in 1945?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You never met him?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. And you don't know Stanley Pustek?

Mr. Babin. One Stanley I met in Spain. I don't know his exact
name.

Mr. Russell. He was New York port patrolman of the National
Maritime Union. You say you met him in Spain?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. You never saw him in the United States?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. What did you discuss with him in Spain? Did he
ever suggest to you that you should take part in the picket Jines in
connection with the maritime strike?

Mr. Babin. Never. I met him as a friend in Spain, that is all.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Harry Justiz?

Mr. Babin. I know him.

Mr. Russell. Is he known to you as a member of the Communist
Party of the United States?

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I know him as an officer of the Yugoslav-
American Home.

Air. Russell. Did you ever discuss with Harry Justiz the problem
of organizing Yugoslav seamen?

Air. Babin. No.

Air. Russell. Did you attend a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's
Club at any time?

Air. Babin. I am president of the Yugoslav Seamen's Club.

Air. Russell. You are still president?

Air. Babin. Yes.

Air. Russell. Do you recall a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's
Club held on April 5, 1947, at the Yugoslav-American Home?

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. We have a meeting usually when
the seamen are in port, and w^e have no exact date.

Air. Russell. Have you ever referred to Harrj'^ Justiz as "Comrade
Justiz" in a speech which you made?

Mr. Babin. No. I just know him as Justiz, that is all.

Air. Russell. Do you know George Pirinsky?

Air, Babin. I know him.

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him?

Mr. Babin. I saw him speaking at the American Slav Congress in
Detroit.

Mr. Russell. WTien was that?

162 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Babin. 1941.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever arrange with him to furnish the names
and addresses of persons hving in South America?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. You never did?

Mr. Babin. Never, no. I don't know nothing about that.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Capt. Albert Kamhi?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You never heard of him?

Mr. Babin. Never heard of him.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting
with George Pirinsky?

Mr. Babin. I never attended any meetings with George.

Mr. Russell. Did you attend a meeting with George Pirinsky
at the Hotel Lincoln on June 21, 1947?

Mr. Babin. No. I never attended any meeting with George
Pirinsky.

Mr. Russell. Do you know General Ilic?

Mr. Babin. I know him, yes, from Spain.

Mr. Russell. How did you know him?

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain.

Mr. Russell. Was he in the Abraham Lmcoln Brigade?

Mr. Babin. No. He was in another brigade. He was a member
of the International Brigade.

Mr. Russell. Did yoa ever supply him with the names of persons
and organizations in Soath America?

Mr. Babin. Never; never.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make a speech in which you intro-
duced General Ilic to the audience?

Mr, Babin. He spoke at the Yugoslav-American Home, but I
did not introduce him.

Mr. Russell. Didn't you mtroduce him as an old-time Communist
who operated as a propagandist from Paris and Belgium ''about
6 or 7 years ago"?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You deny that?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Rufc-SELL. Do you laiow Anthony Gerlach?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him?

Mr. Babin. He was living in New York. I know him smce I came
here.

Mr. Russell. Do you loiow if he ever addressed a meeting of the
American Association for the Reconstruction of Yugoslavia?

Mr. Babin. No. I never attended a meeting of that sort.

Mr. Russell. At this particular meeting he said, in speaking of
the Americans of Yugoslavic descent, that they should return to
Yugoslavia. He said:

This is secret. We do not want Americans who are not our friends to know
this for the Government would not permit it.

In the same speech he said you would be in charge of making all
arrangements for the shipment of equipment and transportation of
workers to Yugoslavia. Do you deny that?
Mr. Babin. Absolutely.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 163

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sam Madell?

Mr. Babin. Sam Madell?

Mr. Russell. Yes.

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I can't remember all these names.
Maybe I know; maybe I don't.

Mr. Russell. Do you know George Watt?

Mr. Babin. George Watt, I know him from Spain.

Mr. Russell. You know him as a member of the trade-union
department of the Communist Party?

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain.

Mr. Russell. Do you know whether he is a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Mr. Babin. I don't know.

Mr. Russell. He never told you he was a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Joseph Zavertnik?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. How do you know him?

Mr. Babin. I know him during the relief campaign, Yugoslavian
relief, and I know him as vice president of the [Yugoslav] American
Home Corp.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting of the Union of
Yugoslav Americans?

Mr. Babin. Well, during that time I don't know. Maybe I
attended or not.

Mr. Russell. Did you attend one on November 30, 1947, or
sometime during the latter part of 1947?

Mr. Babin. I don't remember that.

Mr. Russell. It was in celebration of the second anniversary of
the Tito government.

Mr. Babin. I don't remember that.

Mr. Russell. You don't remember?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Did you make a speech at any time before the Union
of Yugoslav Americans?

Mr. Babin. Only for relief.

Mr. Russell. On November 30, 1947, according to our informa-
tion, you made a speech in which you accused the United States of
working with all its strength to destroy the workers of New Yugo-
slavia, and you said:

We have to be aware of this fact and we have to make an effort that the working
class will reach its goal.

Mr. Babin. I never said that.
Mr. Russell. You deny that?
Mr. Babin. I never said that.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Steve Nelson?
Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You never met him?
Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain.

Mr. Russell. You said you didn't know him, and now you say
you do know him?

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain.

Mr. Russell. You never saw him in the United States?

164 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You never made arrangements with him to pay a
joint hotel bill at the Lincoln Hotel?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. You are positive of that?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet him in the United States by
another name than Steve Nelson?

Mr. Babin. I don't know.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever know him as Steve Mesarosh?

Mr. Babin. No, never.

Mr. Russell. Did you serve under him as a member of the Abra-
ham Lincoln Brigade?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. He was a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

Mr. Babin. I at that time was a member of the Balkan Battalion
of International Brigades. I was about 3 months a member of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

Mr. Russell. Did you meet Steve Nelson in California in 1944
and 1945?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Were you ever in California?

Mr. Babin. I was in California off and on.

Mr. Russell. What was the purpose of your visits?

Mr. Babin. Relief.

Mr. Russell. You were collecting money?

Mr. Babin. Collecting money for Yugoslavian relief,

Mr. Russell. Where?

Mr. Babin. Los Angeles, San Pedro, Watsonville, Oakland, Seattle,
and other places.

Mr. Russell. Did you collect any money from Louise Bransten
in California?

Mr, Babin. I don't know. I was speaking at meetings for Yugo-
slavian relief,

Mr, Russell. Were there any large contributors?

Mr, Babin, I didn't get the money. The committee arranged the
meeting, collected the money, and sent it to New York,

Mr. Russell. Did you have any instructions to contact any par-
ticular person in California?

Mr. Babin. No. I only contacted persons like Mr. Budanovich at
San Pedro, the Spiveloz brothers, Nick Bez, and those guys,

Mr. Russell, Nick who?

Mr. Babin. Nick Bez.

Mr. Russell. B-e-z?

Mr. Babin. Yes.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss the problem of Communist
organization among Yugoslav seamen with Steve Nelson and Harry
Justiz?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Didn't you discuss the problem of Communist or-
ganization among Yugoslav seamen with Steve Nelson and Harry
Justiz in November 1945?

Mr. Babin. Never. Nobody attended those meetings but Yugo-
slav seamen.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 165

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with Steve Nelson and Harry
Justiz at the Yugoslav Seamen's Club?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with Harry Justiz?

Mr. Babin. Harry Justiz I met two or three times a week.

Mr. Russell. Steve Nelson was not there?

Mr. Babin. Steve Nelson was not there.

Mr. Russell. Didn't j-ou meet with Steve Nelson and Harry
Justiz on January 11, 1946, at a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's
Club?

Mr. Babin. No. Nobody attended our meetings, as far as I know,
but Yugoslav seamen.

Mr. Russell. Didn't Steve Nelson request you on one occasion to
obtain a translation of the constitution and speech of Georgi Dimitrov?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet Steve Nelson in the company of
George Pirinsky?

Mr. Babin. No; never.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leo Fisher?

Mr. Babin. I know^ him.

Mr. Russell. How do you know him?

Mr. Babin. I was speaking in New York during the war. I spoke
at Pittsburgh for the relief committee.

Mr. Russell. Yugoslavian Relief Committee?

Mr. Babin. Yes. I w^as in every city in the United States.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss Communist Party organization
with Leo Fisher?

Mr. Babin. Never,

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with him in New York City?

Mr. Babin. I met him during the relief campaign.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Matthew Cvetic?

Mr. Babin. I don't know that name.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leo Bacich?

Mr. Babin. I know him.

Mr. Russell. How do you know him?

Mr. Babin. As secretary of an organization I belong to.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss Communist Party organization
with him?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Russell. Do you know Peter Vukcevich?

Mr. Babin. I know him.

Mr. Russell. How do you know him?

Mr. Babin. He is a member of Yugoslav-American Home, and was
secretary for the relief during the war.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln
with any of the following persons: Peter Vukcevich, Leo Babich,
Harry Justiz, George Pirinsky, Anthony Gerlach, Leo Fisher, Matthew
Cvetic, Daisy Lolich, and certain other individuals?

Mr. Babin. Never. I never attend such a meeting.

Mr. Russell. You never attended a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln
on June 21, 1947?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. The meeting was held in room 308 and the room was
'eserved in your name.

166 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Babin. I never attended the meeting.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make a reservation at the Hotel
Lincohi?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. You deny that affirmatively?

Mr. Babin. Sure I do for the meeting. \Vliat kind of meeting?

Mr. Russell. Did you register at the Hotel Lincoln?

Mr. Babin. I registered what?

Mr. Russell. Did you register as a guest at the Hotel Lincoln for
room 308?

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. I know nothing about that
meeting.

Mr. Walter. What was that answer?

(The answer was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Wood. The question asked was, Did you register as a guest at
Hotel Lincoln?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Wood. And they assigned you a room?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Case. Of course the witness has said "never," but I wonder if
there shouldn't be some suggestion of the year or time.

Mr. Russell. The meeting was held June 21, 1947.

Mr. Wood. At any time on or around June 21, 1947, did you
register at the Lincoln Hotel for a room?

Mr. Babin. No. I don't remember the date or anything like that.

Mr. Case. In what city is the Lincoln Hotel?

Mr. Russell. New York City.

Mr. Wood. The question is: Did you register for a room at that
time?

Mr. Babin. No. Why should I register for a room? I never was
there.

Mr. Wood. You never were there?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Wood. You never did go to that hotel and sign you name as a
guest?

Mr. Babin. No.

Mr. Wood. You never have?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Case. Where were you in June 1947?

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I was in New York or somewhere else.
I don't remember.

Mr. Case. Did you ever stop at the Hotel Lincoln?

Mr. Babin. No. I never was there. I passed by the Hotel
Lincoln a hundred times but I never registered here, never.

Mr. Case. You never stopped there?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Case. You never took a room there, even for part of a day?

Mr. Babin. Never. I never was there, never.

Mr. Russell. In other words, you have never made a reservation
for a room at the Hotel Lincoln for anyone?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. You have never made a reservation for a room atj
the Hotel Lincoln under your own name at any time?

Mr. Babin. No, never.

/

\

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 167

Mr. Russell. Did you ever authorize anyone to make a room
reservation for you at the Hotel Lincohi?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. You deny that you made one for a meeting which
was to take place in room 308 at Hotel Lincoln on June 21, 1947?

Mr. Babin. That, to me, is absolutely — I don't laiow what to say
about it. I never was there, never attended no meeting and never
was registered there.

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln
which was addressed by Dr. Slavko Zore?

Mr. Babin. Never.

Mr. Russell. Have you ever requested information regarding the
production of war materials manufactm-ed in factories in Pittsbureih?

Mr. Babin. That is a big joke too.

Mr. Russell. What is the answer?

Mr. Babin. Never. What do you mean? It is a question that is
simply — ^I would not even talk about such a question.

Mr. Russell. What is yom* answer to the question?

Mr. Babin. Never; never; not to nobody, nothing.

Mr. Russell. In other words, the answer is "No"?

Mr. Babin. No; definitely.

Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be excused for
about 10 minutes while the committee goes into executive session.

Mr. Wood. Very well. Will you remain outside until called,
please?

Mr, FoRER. We will be in the hall.
.' Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Attorney, you can bring your client in this
room (indicating room next to hearing room) where you will have a
seat.

IVIr. FoRER. That is much better, thank you.

(Thereupon, the witness and his counsel left the hearing room and
the committee went into executive session, which executive session
was not reported. At 12:40 p. m. an adjournment was taken until
Wesnesday, June 8, 1949, at 10:30 a. m.)

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1949

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the Committee on

Un-American Activities,

Washington, D. C.

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
pm-suant to call at 10:30 a. m., in room 226, Old House Office Building,
Hon. John S. Wood (chairman) presiding.

Subcommittee members present: Representatives John S. Wood
(chairman), Francis E. Walter, Francis Case, and Harold H. Velde.

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, senior investigator; Charles E. McKillips, investigator; and
A. S. Poore, editor.

Mr. Wood. Let the record show that the chairman has appointed
a subcommittee consisting of Mr. Walter, Mr. Case, Mr. Velde, and
Mr. Wood, and that they are all present.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, on May 27, 1949, the committee
heard in executive session one Toma Babin, who was formerly an
accredited official of the Yugoslav Government in the United States
and attached to the Yugoslav consulate in New York City. Mr.
Babin at present is the subject of deportation proceedings inaugurated
by the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Department of
Justice. These proceedings were initiated shortly after Mr. Babin's
appearance before the committee.

At the time Mr. Babin appeared before the committee, he was ques-
tioned regarding his Communist associations and participation during
his stay in the United States, starting with his illegal entry in 1926.
JVIr. Babin was questioned particularly regarding a meeting held in
the Hotel Lincoln at Forty-fourth and Forty-fifth Streets and Eighth
Avenue in New York City on June 21, 1947, which was attended by
Steve Nelson, who has been before this committee on numerous occa-
sions, and certain other persons who have been the subjects of investi-
gation by this committee.

According to a report which the committee received regarding this
meeting, its purpose was to discuss the American Slav Congress and
the Croatian Fraternal Union, both of which organizations were the
subject of quite a bit of material in a recent report issued by the com-
mittee entitled "Report on the American Slav Congress."

When Mr. Babin was questioned regarding the meeting in the Hotel
Lincoln, he denied he had ever attended a meeting in the Hotel Lincoln,
and when questioned further he denied he had ever registered at the
Hotel Lincoln or given anybody permission to register in his name at
the Hotel Lincoln.

169

170 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Subsequent to his interrogation, the staff of this committee has
been able to obtain a Hotel Lincoln registration card made out in the
name of T. Babin for room 308 at the rate of $10 per day. After
receipt of the registration card, certain known specimens of the hand-
writing of Toma Babin obtained from the Immigration and Natural-
ization Service were submitted to the Veterans' Administration, along
with the registration card of the Hotel Lincoln, for handwriting com-
parisons.

I would like at this time to introduce in evidence the Hotel Lincoln
registration card and have it marked Exhibit Q-1.

Mr. Wood. So ordered.

(The card above referred to, marked "Exhibit Q-1," is included at
the end of this hearing.)

Mr. Tavenner. I also desire to offer in evidence certain alleged
specimens of the loiown handwriting of Toma Babin, marked Exhibits
K-1, K-2, K-3, and K-4, respectively.

Mr. Wood. So ordered.

(The documents above referred to, marked "Exhibit K-1," "Ex-
hibit K-2," "Exhibit K-3," and "Exhibit K-4," are included at the
end of this hearmg.)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. McKillips.

Mr. Wood. You solemnly swear the testimony you will give the
subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. AlcKiLLiPS. I do.

SWORN TESTIMONY OF CHARLES McKILLIPS

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name?

Mr. McKillips. Charles McKillips.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your present occupation?

Mr. McKillips. Investigator for the Un-American Activities
Committee.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been an investigator for this
committee?

Mr. McKillips. Approximately 1 year.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. McKillips, will you examine exhibits Q-1
and K-1, K-2, K-3, and K-4 and state where you obtained them, if
you did so?

Mr. McKillips. I obtained these from the Immigration and
Naturalization Service at Nineteenth Street and East Capitol Street
NE. [Washington, D. C.]. Miss Snyder gave me Mr. Babin's file. I
picked out five or six pages which contained the better specimens of
his handwriting, and I asked her to have them photographed, which
she did in about 2 days and sent them to this office, and I then took
them to the Veterans' Administration office and had them examined.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not you obtained, for
use by this committee, the original Hotel Lincoln registration card.

Mr. McKillips. Yes. I went to New York and got the original
registration card from the assistant manager of the Lincoln Hotel.

Mr. Tavenner. That is all.

Mr. Wood. Any questions?

(No response.)

(Witness excused.)

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 171

Mr. Tavenner. I now desire to call Mr. Fry as a witness.

Mr. Wood. Mr. Fry, do you solemnly swear the evidence you will
give this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Fry. Yes;Ido^

Mr. Wood. Have a seat.

SWORN TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR W. FRY

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name?

Mr. Fry. Arthur W. Fry.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live?

Mr. Fry. Silver Spring, Md.

Mr. Tavenner. Where are you employed?

Air. Fry. In the Veterans' Administration central office, Washing-
ton, D. C.

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhat is your title and what are your duties in the
United States Veterans' Administration?

Mr. Fry. My title is Assistant Chief of the Identification and Detec-
tion Division. My duties are to examine documents in which the
Veterans' Administration is interested when a question arises as to
the genuineness of a document or the identity of any of its parts.
This involves the examination of handwritten, typewritten, and
printed documents, inks, and questioned documents of various kinds.

Mr. Tavenner. What preparation have you made in connection
with your profession?

Mr. Fry. I have read and studied various books dealing with
questioned documents, and while employed at the First National Bank
for 15 years I had special experience in questioned document work.
I have been trained and qualified by several questioned document
examiners, and while engaged in the Protective Research Section at the
White House I worked with other qualified examiners, and it was my
duty to examine questioned documents of the President of the United
States and render opinions on same.

Mr. Tavenner. You said you were employed 15 years by the First
National Banlv. Will you indicate which First National Bank that
was?

Mr. Fry. The First National Bank at Spokane, Wash.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed in the Division
of Questioned Documents in the Veterans' Administration?

Mr. Fry. For approximately 3 years.

Mr, Tavenner. Will you relate your positions previous to becom-
ing employed by the Veterans' Administration?

Mr. Fry. After finishing school I was employed by the First
National Bank at Spokane for approximately 15 years. I entered
the Federal service in May 1941 as an agent for the United States
Secret Service, and was later transferred to the Protective Research
Section at the White House.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in this work?

Mr. Fry. Approximately 20 years.

Mr. Tavenner. How much of your time is spent in this work?

Mr. Fry. All of my time.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you rendered conclusions on questioned docu-
ment problems?

172 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Mr. Fry. Yes, I have, in more than 8,000 cases, which involved
many more times that number of documents.

Mr. Tavenner, Did you assist in the examination of the questioned
document in this matter?

Mr. Fry. Yes, I did. I conducted a separate and distinct examina-
tion of my own with respect to these documents which have just been
entered in evidence, exhibits Q-1 and K-1 through K-4.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an office memorandum signed by H. J.
E. Gesell, Chief, Identification and Detection Division, directed to the
Director, Inspection-Investigation Service, bearing date June 10, 1949,
and I will ask you whether you participated in the preparation of that
report on this questioned document?

Mr. Fry. Yes, I did.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it to the committee?

Mr. Fry. This is a memorandum dated June 10, 1949, addressed to
the Director, Inspection-Investigation Service, from the Chief, Iden-
tification and Detection Division. Subject: Comparison of hand-
writing re T. Babin.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it?

Mr. Fry (reading):

1. On this date, Mr. C. E. McKillips, investigator for the Un-American Activi-
ties Committee, personally and informally submitted a hotel registration card on
the Hotel Lincoln, New York City, F 19863, bearing name and address "T. Babin,
219 W. 19 St. N. Y. C," also bearing firm's name — Shipping ofice. (Spelled with
one "f".) There, also, was submitted photographic copies of purported known
signatures and writing of Thomas ^ Babin appearing on exhibits identified as K-1,
K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5. K-5 contains the purported known signature of Tomas
Babin appearing on letter dated May 27, 1949.

2. It was requested that the purported known signatures of Toma Babin,
K-1 through K-5, be examined and compared with the questioned signature and
writing appearing on the Hotel Lincoln registration card identified as Q-1 to
determine authorship.

3. The signatures and writings afore-mentioned were carefully examined and
compared and such a study has resulted in the conclusion that the person who
wrote the names "Thomas Babin" and other writings appearing on exhibits K-1
K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5 also is responsible for the pen-and-ink writing "T.
Babin," 219 W. 19 St. N. Y. C— Shipping ofice (spelled with one "f"), appearing
on the Hotel Lincoln registration card of New York City bearing No. F 19863,
also identified as Q-1.

4. In the event testimony is desired concerning the conclusion reached in this
report, it will be necessary to return exhibits K-1, K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5 for
the preparation of photographic exhibits at least a week or 10 days before trial
or hearing date.

H. J. E. Gesell.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you unite in the conclusions expressed in that
report?

Mr, Fry. I do concur in the opinion given in this memorandum.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you of the opinion, and did you arrive at the
independent conclusion, that the person who signed the questioned
document, exhibit Q-1 , was the same person who signed the documents
K-1 through K-5, inclusive?

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. I made an independent examination and came
to that conclusion.

(Mr. McSweeney, member of the full committee, enters.)

Mr. Tavenner. That is all.

Mr. Wood. Any questions?

2 The name spelled variously Thomas, Tomas, Toma, Tom, T. Babin all|tl^ subject of hearing and
the same person.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 173

Mr. Case. I have a question.

Mr. Wood. Mr. Case.

Mr. Case. Mr. Fry, you were present and seated at the table
where you are now seated when the documents were first presented in
evidence this morning?

Mr. Fry. Yes, su\
. Mr. Case. And you saw them presented in evidence?

Mr. Fry. Yes; just across the table, and I noticed K-5 was omitted
in that group.

Mr. Tavenner. I had proposed to introduce that later, but for the
purpose of your identification of that letter I now hand you a letter
dated May 27, 1949, dii'ected to Mr. Frank Tavenner, over the signa-
ture of Toma Babin. Is that the document K-5 to which you have
referred?

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the documents introduced in
evidence as exhibits Q-1 and K-1 thi'ough K-4, inclusive, and state
whether or not they are the documents to which you referred?

Mr. Fry (after examining said documents). Yes, sir, they are.

Mr. Wood. Let's see K-5.

(Exhibit K-5 was handed to Mr. Wood.)

Mr. Wood. Any further questions, Mr. Case?

Mr. Case. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to insert
in the record this letter, K-5, dated May 27, 1949, addressed to me
as counsel of the committee, signed by Toma Babin. You will recall
at the time Air. Babin was questioned he testified that he met Steve
Nelson in Spain, but stated that he had not seen him since his retm^n
from Spain to the United States. In this letter Mr. Babin states that
he did see Steve Nelson several times in the United States, and states
that he made an inadvertent error in the testimony which he gave
before the committee regarding Steve Nelson and it is his desire that
this be incorporated in the record. Therefore, I offer it in evidence,
and, inasmuch as it was used as an exhibit with regard to the hand-
writing, ask that it be marked Exhibit "K-5."

Mr. Wood. It will be admitted.

(The letter above referred to, marked "Exhibit K-5", is hereinafter
incorporated in the record.)

Mr. Tavenner. And I think I should read it into the record:

Washington, D. C, May 27, 1949.
Mr. Frank Tavenner,

Counsel, House Committee on Un-American Activities,
House Office Building, Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Taa^enner: I wish to correct an inadvertent error in the testimony
I gave earlier today before the committee. I tried to make this correction before
the committee, but they adjourned after what they had announced as a 10-minute
recess. I did tell Mr. Russell and Mr. Appell about it, and they told me that
the members of the committee had gone to the floor of the House.

The correction regards my acquaintance with Steve Nelson. As I testified
before the committee, I first met Nelson in Spain. However, I have also met
him several times in the United States since my return from Spain. I do not
recall the times or occasions except that several times it was at reunions of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and once at the restaurant in the Yugoslav-American
Home. I do not recall the substance of our conversations, which were brief and
consisted of small talk.

174 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

Please put this correction in the record of the hearing. Since I am still under
the committee's subpena, naturally, if the committee thinks the correction is of
consequence it can be made before it.
Yours truly,

ToMA Babin.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chaii-maii, in view of the fact that Babin's
testimony regarding the Hotel Lincoln registration furnishes the
basis for investigation of a charge of perjury before this committee,
I suggest that this committee, in executive session, consider that
matter and consider whether it wishes to refer this matter to the
Department of Justice for investigation and appropriate action, but
I would suggest that you defer going into executive session until the
close of this hearing.

Mr. Walter. May 1 ask a question of this witness?

Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter.

Mr. Walter. Are you positive that the signature on the letter
just read is the signatiu"e of the person who signed the register in
New York City?

Mr. Fry. I am positive in my opinion, sir. The signature on the
letter K-5 was given to me as a known signature of Mr. Babin. In
other words, that is not a questioned document as far as 1 am con-
cerned. That does contain what is purported to be a known signature.

Mr. Walter. You are positiv3 that the same person who signed
that letter signed the register in New York?

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir, I am positive in my opinion in that respect.

Mr. Walter. That is all.

Mr. Wood. Any further questions, gentlemen?

(No response.)

Mr. Wood. You may be excused.

Mr. Fry. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

Whereupon the proceedings continued, but on another subject.
The testimony of the witnesses that followed will be found in a
separate document under same date.

HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN

175

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